Cold Steel said:
"[God] was loving, compassionate, merciful, but He also knew the evil in the hearts of men and their secret deeds...
The Lord then shows him the coming flood and the people who would die. At first, Enoch entreats God to spare humanity, but then the Lord shows him the wickedness of the people and their deeds...
The day will come when every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ. Why? Because, like Enoch, you will have the same insight that the Lord had and realize that He did what had to be done in the context it was done."
(end quote)
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COLD STEEL, what evil deeds did the animals commit (who were killed in Noah's day)? What secret sins had those creatures carried out that would impel a loving God to drown them all, in the supposedly justified mass murder known as 'the Flood'?
Even looking at the situation in the context of every person on earth being violent and perverted except Noah and his family...
God DID NOT merely 'do what had to be done'.
You would have to admit that God had the power to (I'm borrow wording used in your post) 'surgically remove' all of those wicked people from the earth.
He could have done that, couldn't He?
No collateral damage is necessary if you have the power to selectively kill whoever you choose whilst sparing the innocent and 'godly' people, which your God clearly does.
God chose to mercilessly drown all of those innocent, and sinless, living beings.
Please explain why God 'did what had to be done' in the case of those animals...
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Genesis 7:21
" And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/222352/23/Theists-why-does-God-allow-suffering
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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26
Dammit Jim, I'm a psychopath not an all loving God!
by Coded Logic inwhen did you discover that the god of bible - and the loving god that you had worshiped your entire life - were not the same?
how did it affect you?.
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defender of truth
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
As my final contribution to JWN, I just found this excellent article. I think it sums things up nicely, here are a few of the key points..
"[1. Animal suffering is due to the fall of Adam]
...The problem with both of these variations is why should animals be punished for what man did? It seems grossly unfair and unkind to subject them to such terrible suffering for something that was totally beyond their control.
[2. Animal suffering is due to the evil influence of demons and Satan.]
...The problem with this view is well expressed by Richard Kingston:
If God entrusted to fallible angelic beings such absolute control over creation that it was within their power to "brutalize" the animal kingdom for all time, then he cannot be exonerated from all culpability for what allegedly happened. Must we not go further and say that such action would indicate either incompetence or the fact that the sufferings of the lower creatures are unimportant in eyes of the Creator? (Animals and Christianity, p. 74 cited by Loftus, p. 251).
[3. Animals really do NOT suffer]
...Science has conclusively shown that animals do in fact feel pain and experience the emotions of fear and anxiety as well. An omniscient God would have known this when he created the animal kingdom so the only conclusion one can draw is that he simply doesn't care about their suffering.
[4. and 5. God is indifferent to animal suffering]
...The problem with this view is that it is repugnant to man's moral sensibilities. It would make God no different from those, like Michael Vick, who run dog-fighting rings. If what Vick did was morally disgusting, then what the Creator has done on a much larger scale is even more disgusting."
http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/05/christian-delusion-chapter-nine.html -
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
Last Bttt.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
"I could not have slept tonight if I had left that helpless little creature to perish on the ground." (Reply to friends who chided him for delaying them by stopping to return a fledgling to its nest.)
~ Abraham Lincoln
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[ Spot the difference between the above quote and Jehovah's tender compassion for defenseless creatures... ]
Genesis 7:21
" And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." -
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
BTTT for anyone who is interested
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71
Watchtower encouraging members to go and preach in Israel
by wannaexit inan odd letter was read at last nights' meeting.
it was in regards to a special campaign for next year arranged by the governing body to go and preach in israel.
the call is going out to anybody that speaks hebrew and english.
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defender of truth
"The U.S. Department of State reveals in its 2012 Report on International Religious Freedom regarding Israel and the Occupied Territories that while "the country's laws and policies provide for religious freedom and the government generally respected religious freedom in practice," that attitude among Jews toward missionary activities and conversations were negative.
"Most Jews opposed missionary activity directed at Jews, and some were hostile to Jewish converts to Christianity," according to the State Department's report. "Messianic Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses were harassed regularly by Yad L'Achim and Lev L'Achim, Jewish religious organizations opposed to missionary activity."
http://christianpost.com/news/christian-persecution-in-hostile-israel-highlighted-by-evangelical-group-some-may-disagree-and-even-take-offense-says-nonprofit--113877/ -
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Wales - ITV Report: JWs sex abuse victims call for organisation to be held accountable
by AndersonsInfo initv report (wales).
29 september 2014 at 6:00am.
jehovahs witness sex abuse victims call for organisation to be held accountable.
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defender of truth
BTTT for any who missed this.
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Vermont Sisters Sue Jehovah's Witnesses For Child Sex Abuse
by Watchtower-Free inhttp://digital.vpr.net/post/vermont-sisters-sue-jehovahs-witnesses-child-sex-abuse.
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defender of truth
Punk, good point.
"This is a civil suit, but the mom says she talked to police. We did confirm with state police that they investigated the case back in 1996 and forwarded it to the Windham County state's attorney at the time, Dan Davis. Davis told WCAX News that he cannot recall the case and couldn't say why charges weren't filed."
http://www.wcax.com/story/26665831/child-sex-abuse-lawsuit-filed-against-vt-jehovahs-witnesses -
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Wales - ITV Report: JWs sex abuse victims call for organisation to be held accountable
by AndersonsInfo initv report (wales).
29 september 2014 at 6:00am.
jehovahs witness sex abuse victims call for organisation to be held accountable.
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defender of truth
Thanks Barbara.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
If you are the thinking type of believer in God, please read the following article. Here's a quote from it:
"Is God guilty of animal cruelty?
Many diseases and defects are endemic to specific kinds of animals.
It’s almost as if predation and accidents alone were not enough suffering, so God designed specialized bacteria, viruses, parasites and diseases to multiply the suffering of animals.
Take, for example, the Tasmanian Devil we discussed earlier. Even at birth, his odds of dying outnumber his odds of surviving. Those that do survive are more than likely to contract Devil Facial Tumour Disease, a fatal contagious cancer that causes large growths on the devil’s face, making it difficult for them to eat or see, and putting the entire species at risk of extinction.
Why? Have they done something to offend God? Did they eat of the forbidden fruit? Does their suffering help increase their faith? Or help them to experience the full extent of free will?"
http://500questions.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/42-why-does-god-allow-animals-to-suffer/